Talk:Images and socionics

reality, as we perceive it, is basically composed of information. Machintruc 17:13, 20 June 2007 (CDT)

Yes. I'd like to get Bionicgoat involved in this project. He has a very good sense of the effect of pictures. (Admin 17:17, 20 June 2007 (CDT))

I shall do my best :)(after I look up what sort of rules are involved with what is/isn't public domain) Bionicgoat 04:18, 21 June 2007 (CDT)

sorry guys... I'm feeling incredibly lazy lately. I'll get to sometime though ;)Bionicgoat 08:40, 22 June 2007 (CDT)

How do we know which images we can upload? Any that happens to be available in Wikipedia is ok? Expat 11:07, 22 June 2007 (CDT)

Yes. Maybe others, but they have to be clearly in the public domain.

I need help figuring out how to have smaller thumbnails. (Admin 11:18, 22 June 2007 (CDT))

since I'm much better at finding striking images than the analysing part (I can usually just "sense" when a picture is strikingly evocotive of something (IM or whatever)) is it allright if my analysis are kind of weak/missing and one of you guys fills it in for me? (feeling free to delete anything that's not up to par of course) Bionicgoat 11:36, 22 June 2007 (CDT)

Definitely. That's the fun of this project -- putting things together bit by bit. (Admin 11:59, 22 June 2007 (CDT))

picture of Einstein and Bohr

also I think that one pic of Einstein and Bohr you (Expat) posted at 16t along with my incites into what was going on would make a good addition (assuming it's public domain, which I'd assume it is by now) but not necessarily as illustrating an IM. More the difference in attitude between ILE and whatever Bohr was. I really think I/we got at something with that one.Bionicgoat 11:40, 22 June 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, good one, I'll look for it. I think it can be seen as illustrating whether one is receptive to positive Fe in the form of public recognition (Einstein) or annoyed by it (Bohr, ILI) Expat 11:46, 22 June 2007 (CDT)

http://www.arikah.net/commons/en/f/f4/Niels_Bohr_Albert_Einstein2_by_Ehrenfest.jpg

That's a good link, but I have no idea whether it's public domain or not -- it wasn't in Wikipedia. Expat 11:52, 22 June 2007 (CDT)

I'm tempted to go ahead and upload it but I'm not sure... damn the legal system :( I wonder how we find out if it's public domain or not. Bionicgoat 13:16, 22 June 2007 (CDT)

Okay, but isn't that more VI than what this page is about so far? (Admin 13:35, 22 June 2007 (CDT))

that's sort of what I was saying with my original comment... it's not really illustrating a specific element so much as the difference between two types. I guess we leave it out for now? or maybe work it into the Einstein article? Either way I think I have to agree now that it doesn't really go along with the context of this page. You've made me see the light :)Bionicgoat 13:41, 22 June 2007 (CDT)

At some point we can open a VI discussion project similar to this one. (Admin 13:56, 22 June 2007 (CDT))

Paris

My point was to show a contrast to the Stalinist architecture, not sure if it came across -- it had also an authoritarian, symmetrical flavor to it but it was considerably softened by Si and Te. Expat 03:32, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Great. I added a comment to it. (Admin 10:19, 6 July 2007 (CDT))

Excellent reference to the Pompidou center, and yes, what I see there is Ne and Te. Probably IEE. Expat 04:00, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

Too big?

I have some other ideas, but I don't want to make this page too big. Should we subdivided? Also, I'd like a feedback by Bionicgoat on what's been done so far Expat 05:51, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

I'd say just keep going for now until it a type decides how to reorganize the page :-) --Admin 05:53, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Heh. I'd say organize it by information element, and then by medium, but that might be difficult if you want to look at dichotomies too. Thehotelambush 22:42, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

We can create a series of pages on different mediums, adding new pages as necessary, and have a template at the bottom for this section (same thing for the music page if it grows too big. --Admin 23:31, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

Brasilia

I'm getting somewhat different impressions from the architecture of Brasilia. The architect used some of the standard formulas of government buildings (the repeating straight lines, the high steeple, and a few other indications of centralized power), but other than that it looks like he did everything possible to mask the underlying role of power and hierarchy. All the buildings are airy and lack thickness and heaviness of form. They have all these thin, flowing forms sticking out of them for no apparent reason. Even the high steeple seems more of a symbol of something else than an actual representation of power (it should be spiked and have a heavier base to convey 'aggressiveness'). What I get is more of an intuitive feel than anything. --Admin 12:33, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

But what about the clear focus on the higher buildings of congress? I never meant it conveyed aggressiveness, by the way. Expat 13:57, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Aha, I didn't realize at first that those were buildings (I was calling them steeples). I see that he has observed the convention that power should be higher up, but the whole thing seems comic -- oddly shaped bowls and stuff. In no way would one feel overpowered by these buildings. They seem novel and playful. I think he's taken a conceptual approach, like in abstract art. That's why I see primarily intuition here. --Admin 14:43, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Also, there is one thing that almost everyone agrees -- the lack of functionality. A former Brazilian president comment, "Niemeyer should be condemned to live in the presidential palace". Anyway, ok, perhaps I should tone down any references to Se Expat 14:16, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

I would agree with admin. The building looks definitely logical and irrational, abstract. But I also think the building is static. "Novel and playful" would rather fit a characteristic of Ne+Ti and Id - quadra which is to a certain degree analog to alpha-quadra. However, it is not easy to judge artwork and it could be interpreted differently.

Sydney opera house

Could there be some Fe in there as well, with all the "expressive," non-functional shapes? --Admin 15:17, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Both this and the Africaans thing below it are said to have a mix of Ni and Si...The Si part because they look good. Is it possible that there's something wrong with the definition of Si if it means anything that looks good? :) (Just wondering). --Jonathan 16:40, 16 July 2007 (BST)

I'll give you an example. I took my SEI father to both Stonehenge and the ruins of ancient Rome (among other things). He did not like them at all, he just saw Stonehenge as a "bunch of broken stones" and the ruins as "ugly, old, depressing". They are precisely the kind of thing - that require Ni to be appreciated - their age, significance, the fact that an ancient civilization put them together etc - while not necessarily pleasing aesthetically. Whereas he might as well find the Afrikaans monument "pretty" without thinking at all of its meaning. Expat 16:46, 16 July 2007 (BST)

Interesting...Although I haven't seen these ruins in person, I happen to think that they're pretty when I look at pictures of them. I don't perceive it as being impressed with how old they are, how difficult they were to produce, or the fact that they played an important role in history (actually, I see that as maybe more Te than Ni). I just like the "old ruins" look. But I see the point: An Si person would probably be most aware of the actual details...the fact that there are cracks, blemishes, etc....where maybe it takes Ni to appreciate the "flavor" of it...the mythical quality.

This reminds me of how I once lived in a beautiful old house, but heard that some people felt it was an eyesore and should be replaced by a neat and clean modern building with perfect paint. I'm sure that if they did that, I would think that whatever they replaced it with would be perfectly ugly and sterile. I'm not sure to what extent these differences in aesthetic viewpoints is type-related, though. --Jonathan 18:47, 16 July 2007 (BST)

The precise aesthetic taste is not type related, but if the person feels a different connection to the place rather than just aesthetics, then I think it's type related. Expat 18:59, 16 July 2007 (BST)

Afrikaans language monument

I just had to include it there -- I visited it. Probably most people never heard of it. It's pure Ni with just a bit of Si. Expat 04:01, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

wow those monuments are really cool. I like the organic feeling of them... Bionicgoat 05:12, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

architecture

some of Frank Lloyd Wright's home designs should be added into the mix. Will humanize this section a bit I think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lloyd_Wright Bionicgoat 05:17, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

I want to include a section on the palace of Versailles, with its rigid Ti structure later softened by more Si additions, perhaps with some other references -- or is it getting too "pretentious"? I agree with the point about Frank Lloyd. Expat 10:36, 16 July 2007 (BST)

sculpture

what's there is good, but I'm not sure if the common folk will feel much connection with Roman statues. I'd go with some more contemporary stuff like the flag raising on Iwo Jima and maybe that one of Lincoln from the Lincoln monument. Also the Vietnam memorial (that endless wall with all the names). Are those to American-centric? I'll try to think up some more. Bionicgoat 04:56, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

Thanks :) Well, I thought that the contrast between those two kind of statues was obvious, between the Beta "hard" Se-Ti one and the Gamma-Delta "soft" Se-Fi-Si ones. The Vietnam memorial one is very interesting indeed, I think it conveys Fi and Ni. The Lincoln monument -- I'm not sure. Expat 05:06, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

I see it, but I think contrasting something like the Lincoln statue with a Stalin statue might work better Bionicgoat 05:10, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

actually better yet might be a Jesus on the cross (or even a reclining Bhudda or something) next to a stalin Bionicgoat 05:30, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

Jesus on the cross suggests suffering and pain as well as Fi, perhaps one of those pictures of Jesus as "kindly teacher" is better -- interestingly, some old Byzantine representations of Jesus make him look as powerful as Stalin. Expat 07:52, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

yeah that's getting out of statue territory though. Maybe Jesus isn't the best for the contrast afterall. The "kindly teacher" Jesus picture would be good though to include somewhere else, in fact maybe a contrast of that with your powerfull old Byzantine Jesus would be interresting and would be able to convey the different elements or whatever using the same figure (Jesus) I think there would be some good consistancy and contrast going with something like that.Bionicgoat 08:23, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

page flow

somebody needs to figure out how they make the text flow around and to the side of the images like on wikipedia. Would definately improve the presentation of this section. Bionicgoat 05:20, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

good start Rick... I think with a little playing with the picture sizes/placement and stuff it'll be a work of art :) (if nobody else touches it by the time I wake up I'll maybe take a stab at it) Bionicgoat 06:31, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

I tried something creative with the Graphic Art section; any thoughts? Thehotelambush 14:33, 11 July 2007 (CDT)

individually they work like that... but as far a whole page filled up with it, I think it would be weird and awkward to read without some sort of unifying text running along with it to tie everything together (sorry if I'm hard to understand, I'm pretty tired/about to go to sleep) Bionicgoat 14:40, 11 July 2007 (CDT)

Validity of Images and Socionic Type

I'm sorry, I don't buy most of this page at all. This page itself is Si. Suggesting that most of these images reflect Ni or Se might be valid, but it is not really at all appropriate suggesting that certain quadra types appreciate these types of surroundings. Ni types are not likely to notice or care, Ne types are not likely to notice unless an Si type points it out to them, and most Se types would probably notice but pay no attention to the Si involved. Functions like Ni and Ne would not even begin to manifest themselves as structures anyway (though certain types of images might be appropriate). Niffweed17 17:10, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Well, perhaps strong Ni dominants would not care, but Ni quadra types (such as myself) do. And the Afrikaans Language Monument, which I visited with an ILI (who did find the concept appealing), is a pure Ni monument. And if Se types do not notice it, the Stalinist kind of architecture makes no sense. Perhaps Se dominants do not care, but Se quadra types generally do. Expat 17:31, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Hmm. Well, if you say so. Niffweed17 18:53, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Also, I don't mean to say that people will actively think or care about those issues; you're right, many people won't. But if the issue is raised, people do have different views according to their functions in my experience. Expat 19:06, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

This page itself is Si. ;mdash; I can see what you're saying, but by analogy all the rest of this site is intuition (because of the abstract subject matter and a lack of accompanying sensory data). What I think we need is a page on socionics and architecture and socionics and art for the Applications section, like we have done with music. There we can try to create a clearer theoretical basis for this type of thing. --Admin 11:34, 16 July 2007 (BST)